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    Posted: 02 December 2009 at 09:32
I'd like to understand what groups have done to explore D-star 128 kbps operation for RAYNET.
 
What sort of distances have you managed to cover reliably with point to point DD at 128kbps?
  • Mobile to mobile
  • Fixed to mobile
  • Optimised fixed (tall masts, optimum sites, high-gain beams)

Have you tried website browsing across it?

Have you tried point to point VOIP across it (eg using Asterisk PC-based VOIP exchanges or simple VOIP adapters which operate standalone and allow IP direct dial between 2 phones using an IP network)
 
Have you tried Microsoft NETmeeting or Polycom IP videoconferencing across it?
 
Can you get 3 ID1 radios to 'mesh' by setting the called station ID on each ID1 to be "CQCQCQ" (so Ethernet traffic can pass between stations A, B and C transparently?)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G7JRV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 01:48
Originally posted by G6BBM
Have you tried point to point VOIP across it (eg using Asterisk PC-based VOIP exchanges or simple VOIP adapters which operate standalone and allow IP direct dial between 2 phones using an IP network)
 
[/QUOTE


 

 

Jim will be along shortly to answer this in more detail, but from my understanding of the ID-1 in DSTAR-DD mode it is half-duplex ie both ends of a DSTAR-DD link take it in turn to transmit on a simplex frequency, and by the very nature of this VoIP doesn't work.

 

Website browsing is okay, but it does bring back memories of dialup for speed. DSTAR-DD mode is quoted as 128Kbps but after headers (and all that simplex handshaking ) the payload is more like 87Kbps. The payload is pure Ethernet, admit slow Ethernet, but the ID-1's only act as a wireless bridge between the two RJ45 sockets (one on each radio). 

 

Communication is point to point and is routed with call signs programmed into the radios, not IP addresses. The radios don't have IP addresses so CQCQCQ doesn't work in DD mode to my under -standing.

I have heard of our buddies across the pond using a Icom DD mode DSTAR repeater with a DHCP/NAT Linux box behind it to allow more than two ID's to network together and in this case you have to stop calling Icom's 23cms DD mode DSTAR repeater, a "repeater". It isn't, it is a "wireless access point" just the same as in the wi-fi world, and one which doesn't allow clients to talk directly, hence the requirement to put a Linux “router” behind it.

 

The ID-1's are a 10w radio on high power and 1w on low power, in DD mode the radio is switching between TX and RX all the time. I don't know what the TX duty % is for these radios is, but my thinking would be that if I'd paid out £700 for one I wouldn't want it running in high power constant TX for hours upon end unless Icom was happy with that.

 

Phill.

Phill Hills, G7JRV, BAPCO, CCNA.
Group Controller & Registrations Officer, South Sussex RAYNET Group.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G6BBM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 09:24

With regards to the various points:

  • On VOIP over half-duplex - VOIP gateways can be configured to work over a single-hop or dual-hop satellite link, in which case there is significant satellite delay.  Surely half-duplex radio simply looks like 'delay' combined with a bit of of variable packet latency (which one would find on a contended network).  Have people tried using ID1's with VOIP gateways which either automatically detect and compensate for delay and latency - or allow you configure considerable delay/latency tolerance.

 

  • On CQCQCQ - I understand that the radio doesn't understand IP when working point-t--point and is simply an Ethernet bridge.  When in DV mode, CQCQCQ allows any other radio to hear the call and respond.  I assume/hope that in DD more the same logic applies - so that an ID-1 with CQCQCQ programmed in as the station to be called would simply transmit all the Ethernet packets that arrive.  The issue will be over-the-air collisions.  In any case, it should be easy for ICOM to modify the ID1's microcode to allow it to operate in multipoint bridge mode, and to cope with over-the-air collisions.  Has anyone with access to three ID-1's tried this?

 

  • With regards to the ID-1's TX duty cycle - I would actually convert this into Sale of Goods / Consumer protection issue.  Being amateur radio, by detault we are Consumers and the sale of goods act and consumer protection act apply, so that if a radio sold for the purpose of digital data transmission burns out after a few hours of digital data transmission unless such limitations were made clear by the retailer at the time of sale, I would want it exchanged for a product that was of merchantable quality or my £700 back! Buy the radio using a credit card and the credit card company is jointly and severally liable, adding to your consumer protection.

 

  • I am not a lawyer and this is posting does not contain legal advice
Geoff
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G6BBM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 09:30
As a separate D-Star issue - does anyone know of an adapter (similar to the 3rd party D-star DV boards) which allows an existing radio to be converted to Digital Data 128kbps-capable D-Star (whether on 6m, 2m, 70cm, or 23cm) ?
 
Does anyone know of any plans for further DD radios (one which was quad-band 6/2/70/23 with DD at 128kbps, 256kbps, 384kbps and 512kbps and a built in mesh router would be jolly nice indeed)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G7JRV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 13:23
Originally posted by G6BBM

 
Does anyone know of any plans for further DD radios (one which was quad-band 6/2/70/23 with DD at 128kbps, 256kbps, 384kbps and 512kbps and a built in mesh router would be jolly nice indeed)
 
You can put my name on the list for that radio!  Clap
 
Phill.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G6BBM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 December 2009 at 11:23
Returning to D-Star....
 
I think those of us who are interested need to increase accessibility of these sorts of technologies - and encourage the manufacturing market to believe that there is a market there to serve and compete for.
 
I think that it would be beneficial if these sorts of facilities could be built into radios today as a standard service.  When I was first licensed in 1981, a TR9000 10w multimode 2m rig cost £360 and worked on only one band. In today's money (from the www.thisismoney.co.uk inflation calculator) this is about £1,100.  Today, I can buy an FT897 for £600 and it delivers 100w on HF/6m, 50w on 2m and 20w on 70cm.  I would like to buy its successor for less money and more features including wideband digital modes / D-Star built in.
 
It should not be too hard (especially if market forces apply) for manufacturers to incorporate datamodes as standard into the radios, especially now it is getting cheaper for a Software Defined Radio to generate / receive the IF signal this is mixed up to the operating frequency.  This would mean that many more amateurs will be able to gain access to fast, reliable, data capability without special modifications, expensive external modems, or dedicated kit - and the ability to set up a fast data link should be as easy as setting up a voice one.  Amateurs today are also much more likely to be familiar with setting up IP routing, as many will have wireless networks and broadband in their homes, and people are increasingly using SIP phones for cheap VOIP calls.
 
If we did more with digital datamodes we could attract a lot more positive interest in the hobby of amateur radio, and in public service through RAYNET.
 
In the interim, we need a source of good, cheap modifications (preferably no-solder) which would allow existing radios to handle fast data - and a low-cost plug-in device with software which provides D-star digital data capability.  As you say, at the money high-data-rate D-star is only available to amateurs who can afford to throw £700 at a radio which does a very specific job.
 
Another argument for sponsoring digital modes is the 'use it or lose it' one.  Anything that demonstrates that amateur radio is making good use of the spectrum (and does it for the national interest or public good) that is given to it has to be a good thing.  10Mhz of spectrum around 430Mhz or 85Mhz of spectrum at 1300Mhz would fetch a very high price in an OFCOM commercial auction for public wirelesss broadband access!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote g6rib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 December 2009 at 12:41

D-Star digital data offers only modest data rates and appears, from what others have said, to do little more than point to point bridged links.  IP as an add-on rather than the system being designed around IP networking?  Good facilities but nowhere near what can be done with wireless networks on 2.4GHz and above.  The big advantage with D-Star is the use of lower frequencies where longer links are more easily achieved.

 

We should be pushing the manufacturers to include data facilities and to encourage the enhancement of the IP networking capabilities within D-Star but this is not going to happen in the short term.  If we are looking for something that is available now, I’m not convinced that D-Star delivers at a technical level or in terms of value for money.

 

Wireless network technology ticks more of the boxes at this time but it’s not the answer to everything.  I don’t see it delivering 100 mile links or easily providing medium distance links amongst the hills or in to a control room set amongst other buildings.

 

In terms of spectrum, the most vulnerable bands are probably 1.3GHz and 2.3GHz so we need to make more use of both. 

 

I’ll admit that my experience of D-Star is zero and I work with data networks for a living.  My comments need to judged within that context! 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote g6rib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 20:08

A number of posts more generally discussing the need for data within RAYNET have been moved to a new topic so that this one can stay focussed on the use of D-Star Digital Data.

The new topic is titled "Data Requirements in RAYNET".  The direct link is:
 
 
Hopfully moving these posts will encourage both discussions to continue.
 
Andy
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Post Options Post Options   Quote GW4KJW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 20:37
Originally posted by g6rib

A number of posts more generally discussing the need for data within RAYNET have been moved to a new topic so that this one can stay focussed on the use of D-Star Digital Data.

The new topic is titled "Data Requirements in RAYNET".  The direct link is:
 
 
Hopfully moving these posts will encourage both discussions to continue.
 
Andy


Yes....  Well that's certainly one way to make a debate more difficult to follow.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote G6BBM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2009 at 10:08
I think D-star DD mode does have a role in being able to set up a medium-speed datalink in a hurry between two points without 'perfect' line of sight without having to be too accurate.
 
It also allows RAYNET to use a high point to set up an engineered link (eg at 3.4Ghz or 5Ghz) into a working telecoms infrastructure, and then access that within the local disaster area from fixed/portable/mobile stations - which can use 2.4Ghz WLAN technology for access by user agencies.
 
Have any RAYNET groups bought a D-STAR DD repeater system (not actually a repeater for licensing purposes but a data node....) and racked it up in a flightcase with UPS, system controller, IP router, 3.5G router etc?
 
With regards to 100 mile links - I am pursuing use of digital troposcatter over amateur radio separately.  Have not done calculations yet or considered optimum waveforms, however imagine what could be done with:
  •  A Pair of ID-1's
  • A pair of 400W 23cm amplifiers, with low-noise preamps and fast TX/RX switching
  • A pair of 2.4m dishes or quad-stacked beams, with a 23cm feed and the amplifiers mounted directly behind the dish.
  • Mounted on a 4m high tower constructed of triangular aluminium stage trussing, with a vehicle parked each side of it to hold it down

No space or frequency diversity, but given the relatively good power to bandwidth ratio it might be able to hurl data a fair distance.  Just don't stand in front of it.

 
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